Deborah Lindemann interviews Scott Mandelker


DL=Deborah Lindemann
SM=Scott Mandelker

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DL: Now you're being very honest with what you feel, but you know you're going to get a lot of flack from people who are going to disagree with that.

SM: That's ok ...

DL: A lot of abductees would say, "No way, do I want this!"

SM: Well, I would say, if you don't want it, then you can certainly do the work of self-development, moving yourself towards your true power, and the abductions will stop. This would mean doing things like meditation and serious spiritual practices, using mantras, practicing some form of real white magic, and doing these various forms of blending divine power with love -- and thus re-forming your own body/mind/spirit energy system.

DL: This may possibly explain too why we don't hear about abduction in the physical, typical sense, in the worlds of various spiritually evolved people and circles. For example, I've asked a variety of spiritually oriented people, from Brahmans, to priests and the response is very interesting. Unless they are in high denial, or don't talk about it, or misunderstand it and report it as something that's demonic, they're not recording or talking about having these experiences.

SM: Right. Again, I think that we can say that our condition of consciousness determines our personal energy field; the total energy system of self is determined by our mental/spiritual consciousness. Each of us manifests more or less love, more or less wisdom, in more or less balance, with some varying degree of access to our true power.

In the various mystic traditions, you can expect that they've done some spiritual work, generally through their meditation practices. In essence, these practices are for the personal development of love, wisdom and awareness of unity, self-completion. And, that work ultimately makes them invulnerable and not subject to negative ET abduction. While they still have personal distortions, at least they are no longer vulnerable to direct attack.

As to the people who've already had negative attack, again, there is a strong tendency to dismiss the fact that they've been violated, and unfortunately, this sets up an energy blockage that prevents true self-empowerment. We can never access our true spiritual power if we continue to blame others for the quality of our experiences...

DL: A little while ago we touched on the theory or thinking that people are experiencing these encounters as traumatic because they simply don't understand these "beings". And one of the old popular analogies that has been used for years is that if you were to take an animal or pet to the veterinarians...

SM: Yes, this notion I'm quite familiar with...

DL: ...they're being given shots, etc., and that it's all for their good, and that the animals consciousness can't comprehend the consciousness or intent of the doctors. And further, if you could ask the cat or the dog whether they like the experience, they would of course say that they don't, that they hate it, and that they are probably quite scared. Furthermore, if capable, they would most likely think, "This can't be positive or good because it hurts and they didn't ask for it".

SM: Right, the idea is that it's really for their own good and that they [the aliens] know better than the humans as to what we need.

DL: Right exactly.

SM: Yes, I think that's really a lie, and just another piece of alien disinformation, keeping the abductee willing and subservient. Obviously, it also stems from, supports, and furthers the person's denial of self-responsibility, their existing sense of powerlessness, and their continued subjugation by the alien.

In the RA Material [see end of article for clarification of RA material], they stated in no uncertain terms that one of the main purposes of negative ET contact is to make the person feel like a helpless animal. The line of thinking here is that "they" know better than us what we need; they're only trying to help us; and if you feel traumatized and frightened, it's really your own fault since you just don't understand what's good for you. To me, this is a perfect apology, rationalization, and false justification for continued violation. It's a perfect, clear example of negative reasoning and mind control. You can see this type of reasoning employed by many human organizations that basically exist to control people in a top-down fashion.

On the other side of ET contact, we find that the primary work of benevolent extraterrestrials is to help people without infringing on their own free will. The positive ET groups will never force anyone to do or think anything beyond our own consciously chosen free will.

But on Earth, and especially in Western culture, people don't really trust themselves. And with this type of reasoning -- that you are just like an animal who doesn't know any better -- people make themselves totally disempowered. It's pitiful to me to see people argue for this position; it's like saying, "I don't know anything."

You know, from the metaphysical perspective (shared by all ageless wisdom and all mystic traditions the world over), the human being is no less than God. At essence, we are infinite beings, no less that the ETs who have all sorts of high technology and magic powers. In fact, our true nature (identified as what is called, "Higher Self," a relatively enlightened being in its own right) is far beyond the level of soul development of all the negative ETs.

At some level, they actually know this -- just like the elements of our corrupt, self-serving human leadership that don't want the masses to know that they could be in the driver's seat, if they would only wake up and get together. Abducting aliens want you to feel like you're an animal, to keep people disempowered and estranged from their true self-power and glory. This is plain and simple.

By people arguing in favor of their ignorance, they basically perpetuate their own inferiority and weakness, and get further preyed upon. Hey, if the ET contact experience feels really bad, it's probably because it was meant to hurt you. Any other reasoning comes from tortured logic -- which just happens to be the logic of torturers.

In essence, humans are completely on the same level as the ETs. In terms of our soul consciousness, our integrity as spiritually created beings, we are are powerful as any ET group, positive or negative. And so, this kind of argument just perpetuates human inferiority and allows negative ETs to keep on doing their work. Equating ourselves with tagged arctic seals, and injured children rushed to the Emergency Room, is just a form of self-degradation, and maintains human confusion.

DL: Here's a situation that happens many times. Abductees begin to process their experiences. And in that processing, many become stronger or gather more courage to confront their abductors. Many attempt to develop a relationship with these "beings", to become more self-assertive, and share that they have been able to establish a communicable relationship with these "beings".

They share they are more assertive in what they want done to themselves, or not done to themselves, and in that process they claim, at some point, the nature of these experiences changes, or evolves and becomes more of a neutral or even positive relationship. At the least, they suggest the playing field is more leveled, and that they are treated with more respect. What would you say about that, that this is an illusion?

SM: Well, if the experience originates from a truly negative ET group, then they're just fooling themselves. The thing is this: positive and negative orientations -- which you could contrast as "the power or love, as opposed to the love of power" -- are clearly demarcated in higher dimensions. ET groups know perfectly well what they're doing, and they are not so foolish as to not understand the emotions of terror and fear, as well as joy and caring rapport.

Now, if people don't believe that, they should really consider this point, and see where they stand. If you think that all the ET groups are benevolent, then just throw away everything I'm saying, because this notion of the objective existence of cosmic polarity -- commonly called good and evil -- lies at the heart of all that I'm saying. And by the way, the idea of cosmic polarity is shared by all religions and mystic traditions that I know of, all over the world and for all times.

If someone wants to think that the ETs are just as confused as we are, or that their notions of morality are just as fuzzy as ours, then they should just drop everything that I'm saying, and offer themselves to all forms of alien contact, since they've already given up their own will to choose.

Everything that I'm saying comes from my own experiences, from my study of metaphysics and world religion, from my own contacts and my own work with others. All of it supports the contention that higher dimensions are polarized, and there really are benevolent and malevolent ET groups in the universe. Honestly, this is a given to all cultures that have any experience with "spirits" and non-physical entities. It's only our scientifically based, rational-material, Judeo-Christian cultures that stand in opposition, as well as some New Age folks who are afraid of their own shadow.

So, once a negative ET, always a negative ET -- generally, although not always. There are some negative ETs that "cross over" to the positive path, but I can assure you they are not abducting humans to learn how to love from us!

Likewise, once a person is consciously, deliberately, willfully on the path of "service to self," they generally don't change their path. It is folly to imagine likewise, although there are many naive spiritual folks around who don't really understand the ways of evil, and imagine that their healing can make everyone peace-loving. Sad but true, I think that is a mistaken, childish hope.

If a truly malevolent, non-benevolent source makes contact with a human being, I can assure you they have no intention of trying to learn love and respect from you. If they really wanted to cross over, they'd go to a higher dimensional, benevolent ET group, or a human adept on the path of service to others, since they'd be the best ones to help.

Basically, if a non-benevolent ET contacts a human being, it's simply because they want to use you for some purpose -- it's quite silly for us to think that we can heal them, change them, or liberate them. Nor are they going to be healed or saved because you, yourself get some little bit of greater self-awareness, through your own processing of the trauma.

If the ET says that he or she "needs" us for some grand mission, most likely they're just conning you! Positive ET groups don't really "need" us, but they do hope we can help ourselves and serve humanity and the planet in love. That's their only "need."

So if the abducting ET is truly negatively oriented, and you "make a better relationship with them," then maybe you will become a more cooperative slave, or maybe they'll put you at the top of the pecking order, or they'll make your cage a little nicer, or maybe, if you really get spun around, you can join them in the work of fooling other ignorant humans. But in the end, if their intentions are negative to begin with, that won't change, no matter how much you process your own experience and get beyond your fear and terror.

And this is just the same as it is on Earth. You can fight the powers that be, make peace with their existence and force, or cooperate with them willingly on the same side. But whatever your response, those powers maintain their own agenda. And their agenda comes directly from their own self-chosen path, which is called "service to self." Just because you can make lemonade, doesn't mean that the lemon isn't sour.

DL: So you're saying, that some abductees, who have had negative experiences are just making the best of an experience.

SM: Right, people can make the best of a malevolent or traumatic violation type experience, and that is to their credit, definitely. But, that doesn't change their abductor's intention one whit. If people were more comfortable resting in their own self-power, and were not so fixated on looking outside themselves for direction, they'd see this quite simply. What we do with our own experience does not determine the intentions of the other party involved. Their intentions are as they are, and what we do with it is of our own making.

DL: In your book, you frequently speak of "ET souls", "old souls", "Wanderers", for our readers, can you define the definitions of these terms? And you refer to yourself as a "Wanderer", or "ET soul".

SM: Right. Well, I haven't used the term, "old soul," too much, but since a lot of other people use it, I've added to my teaching vocabulary. Basically, I use these terms, "old soul", "ET soul", and "Wanderer" synonymously.

An old soul is a soul who has been reincarnating longer than most other human souls on Earth. This means that their path of evolution is longer than the average person on this planet. That puts them in the category, ultimately, of a "higher-dimensional soul," meaning they're no longer native to third dimensional life.

What I call "third-dimensional life" includes the physical world we see in front of us, which in metaphysical terms is associated with the third chakra, which expresses the state of consciousness that precedes love, and doesn't yet "have" love. This sounds a bit abstract, but I can explain it.

The condition of awareness of the third chakra, or third center, concerns the qualities of individuality, and normal personality integration: physical, emotional and mental. This is what is called, the "integrated personality." It is actually an ageless wisdom term for self-consciousness. It is awareness which includes a conscious sense of selfhood, which is not the case with all living beings.

For example, the animals are conscious, but they are not fully self-conscious. Cats and dogs, whales and dolphins may be a different matter, but most animals don't have a particularly developed sense of personal selfhood. In distinction, human souls are self-conscious, with a mind that can think, "Me and mine," but that's not a particularly advanced stage of evolution either.

The next step beyond this is the fourth center, fourth dimension, and that level expresses love and polarized choice. The old souls I'm talking about, using the term "Wanderers", are those who are usually coming from fourth and sixth dimensions. Meaning, they're a little older, or a whole lot older than the majority of the souls on Earth.

So, a sixth dimension soul is far beyond the sense of common self-identification, but rather, lives in a state of formless unity with the entire manifest creation. At that level of being, there is no longer any sense that anything outside the self is other than the self. The age of these souls is, literally, a few billion years older than the majority of the souls on Earth.

So that's what a Wanderer is: a soul who has been reincarnating longer than most human souls, one who is old. They're basically positive, and come to Earth in love, seeking to serve others. There are maybe eighty million Wanderers or ET souls on Earth.

When some psychic or sensitive says, "You're an old soul," it's generally means that you're a Wanderer. It also means that the person does not need to be on Earth for their spiritual learning, that they've chosen voluntarily to be here for accelerated learning and service to others, but they're real nature belongs to another group, another dimension, and generally, another solar system.

[This interview is available on audio tape . See TAPES in menu below.]

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